God created people?

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Zitat von PopeOfDope

Heres a question for you guys: Why do humans and all animals enjoy music and art? It has no evolutionary purpose, yet we seem to enjoy it. Does this imply a divine creator who wanted to care for his creation and provide opportunities for enjoyment? I never really thought about it too much.

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i dont see why there has to be a "god" that has provided us with artistic tallent and music. its all part of us. not everything has to have a evolutionary purpose. we have all very complex brains that we still dont know how they really function. therefor we dont know why we react to certain things differantly. i still belive that there are alot of things in this universe that we humans will never have any possibility of knowing how they function. we just arent capable of doing everything. we are not smart enough. therefor we need an explanation for the things we cant explain. and.... HERE COMES GOD! :p

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Zitat von FreePlay

Without God, there would be no justification for morality.

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Hypothetically, someone gives you undeniable proof in the nonexistance of god. Something so convincing that you become an atheist on the spot. Are you telling me that you would abandon all your moral values knowing that you won't have to face consequences in the afterlife? If so you are a pathetic excuse for a human being whose entire life is based around fear.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

Then God is unnecessary.

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All god is good for is explaining where the universe came from?

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Zitat von FreePlay

This theory is ridiculous, seeing how it can never answer where the microbes can from in the first place.

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Where's the answer for where god came from?

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Zitat von FreePlay

Why do you WANT to do good if there is no God? Besides societal influence and your upbringing, what possible reason could you have? If there's no God, you might as well be as evil as you can possibly be, since evil and good would be meaningless. Why choose to be good?.................... .....

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Because I feel good when I am nice and I feel bad when I am mean. I am agnostic yet I still have the ability to express empathy.

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Zitat von FreePlay

No, I think you're probably banned from the thread.

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Because it's best to just eliminate everyone who opposes you. Just like back in the witch-burning days.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

That's because religion isn't meant to explain everything. You have to have faith in science as well if you're going to understand the way the world works.

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Faith in science? I have no faith in science as it requires no "faith" to understand and belive. This is because, unlike religion, it makes sense.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Yes, but if you have no ultimate cause for being a moral person, there shouldn't be any reason to be moral. And yet we have an instinct towards moral behavior. Personally, I see this as proof of God's existence. If God wasn't there, we wouldn't have a conscience, since there is no convincing evolutionary benefit to moral behavior. And don't give me any crap about how moral behavior advances society. Evolution is about individuals, not societies.

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Your emphasis on this makes me think that deep down inside you are a terrible serial-killer.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

It's not a religion. You said religion, not faith. Faith is an entirely internal thing.

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Religion without faith? I call that agnosticism.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

Being agnostic is simply refusing to make a decision about religious beliefs. Just like standing still is simply refusing to make a decision about how to get from where you are to where you want to be.

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I find this very insulting. I used to be Christian but I slowly deviated to agnosticism. I didn't do it because I couldn't make up my mind, in fact it took me a long time to make up my mind to consider myself agnostic! I say that if you ignore science and logic and focus only on religion and faith you are showing weakness. Not to say that religious people are inherently weak, but if you refuse to think for yourself or question what you believe, then you are a slave to your religion.

And it's not like refusing to make a decision about how to get from where you are to where you want to be. I want to take a scientific and logical approach to the world, and I got there.



EDIT:
Freeplay, let me ask you a question. Do you belive that intellegent life exists elsewhere in the universe, or only on Earth?

breakdecks. lovely post <3

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Zitat von Chathurga

So people want to be good... God exists! That is a massive jump of logic.
Just because the majority does/believes in anything does not make it right/true.

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That's entirely not my point. My point would be that if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have an instinctive compulsion to perform in a moral way. It's not about what we believe or do. There is something built into human nature that makes us recognize the need for moral behavior, even if we ignore the compulsion to follow it. Everyone of normal mental faculties (i.e. not insane or mentally disabled) has a conscience, and there's nothing scientific about a moral instinct.

It follows logically that for something to be part of our nature, it would have to be part of the universe. And for it to be part of the universe, and still exist outside of the bounds of science, it would have come from outside of nature itself.

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Zitat von PopeOfDope

All morality probably evolved from the idea that if you do something good for others, they will do something good for you. Symbiosis has been around for ages, and morality is just another extension of that.

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But that's rubbish. Ideas and social trends don't cause genetic change. Moral behavior cannot evolve simply because we know someone else will do us a favor if we do them a favor.

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Zitat von PopeOfDope

Of course now, it seems a little hard to apply since people who do immoral things still have the same chance of survival as people who do moral things.

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Exactly. Morality exists independently of evolution.

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Zitat von PopeOfDope

animals enjoy music and art? It has no evolutionary purpose, yet we seem to enjoy it. Does this imply a divine creator who wanted to care for his creation and provide opportunities for enjoyment? I never really thought about it too much.

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I've considered this myself. I can understand the blooming of a flower as a purely natural thing, springing from a series of evolutionary changes that lead to such a thing coming to be. But as to why it should inspire us to write songs, paint pictures, and appreciate the beauty in the universe... there's nothing scientific about it. I firmly believe that emotions cannot be wholly explained by science. You can put a chemical label on something that makes you happy, but that doesn't explain why we need to feel happy in the first place. Emotions get in the way of our survival instincts more often than they help them.

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Zitat von Hooverphonic

not everything has to have a evolutionary purpose.

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From a worldview that excludes God and is purely naturalistic, yes, everything does have to have an evolutionary purpose. Or at least an evolutionary explanation.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Hypothetically, someone gives you undeniable proof in the nonexistance of god. Something so convincing that you become an atheist on the spot. Are you telling me that you would abandon all your moral values knowing that you won't have to face consequences in the afterlife? If so you are a pathetic excuse for a human being whose entire life is based around fear.

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Thanks for the strawman, but you can't prove a negative assertion. Logic forbids it without 100% omniscience.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

All god is good for is explaining where the universe came from?

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No, but if God didn't create the universe, He might as well be excluded from the universe altogether.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Where's the answer for where god came from?

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Supernatural events and beings don't need a cause. Only natural events and beings do. Things that exist outside of nature aren't bound by nature.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Because I feel good when I am nice and I feel bad when I am mean. I am agnostic yet I still have the ability to express empathy.

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OK, but you aren't answering the question. What is "good" and "bad" if you have no reason to feel good or bad? What do they even mean, without some sort of universal moral standard? You can't say you feel 'bad' or 'good' without implying that there's some external thing that defines what 'bad' and 'good' are, and explains what it means to feel them.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Because it's best to just eliminate everyone who opposes you. Just like back in the witch-burning days.

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Dude, he posted the entire freaking book of Genesis. That's why I said that. It must've been deleted before you saw it.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Faith in science? I have no faith in science as it requires no "faith" to understand and belive. This is because, unlike religion, it makes sense.

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OK, fine. Poorly worded. Let's call it trust, then. I trust science, and I trust religion.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Religion without faith? I call that agnosticism.

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Who said anything about religion without faith?? I was talking about patriotism. Please try to stay in the conversation.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

And it's not like refusing to make a decision about how to get from where you are to where you want to be. I want to take a scientific and logical approach to the world, and I got there.

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Obviously you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word "agnosticism." "Agnostic" means that you haven't decided whether you believe God exists or not. That's all. It has nothing to do with science, logic, or anything else. Embracing agnosticism as a "faith" is just saying you refuse to decide whether or not to believe in God.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Freeplay, let me ask you a question. Do you belive that intellegent life exists elsewhere in the universe, or only on Earth?

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Absolutely I believe it does exist elsewhere.

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Zitat von FreePlay

That's entirely not my point. My point would be that if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have an instinctive compulsion to perform in a moral way. It's not about what we believe or do. There is something built into human nature that makes us recognize the need for moral behavior, even if we ignore the compulsion to follow it. Everyone of normal mental faculties (i.e. not insane or mentally disabled) has a conscience, and there's nothing scientific about a moral instinct.

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You're just making crap up aren't you? First of all, you are making a huge assumption to say that "if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have an instinctive compulsion to perform in a moral way". Also, there is something scientific about everything. We may not understand it scientifically, but that doesn't mean that science can't explain it.

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Zitat von FreePlay

It follows logically that for something to be part of our nature, it would have to be part of the universe. And for it to be part of the universe, and still exist outside of the bounds of science, it would have come from outside of nature itself.

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I'm not quite sure if I understand what you are talking about. It seems that you are now making idiotic assumptions based on your previously half-witted assumptions.

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Zitat von FreePlay

But that's rubbish. Ideas and social trends don't cause genetic change. Moral behavior cannot evolve simply because we know someone else will do us a favor if we do them a favor.

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You couldn't be more wrong. If we do something good, something good might happen to us as a result. But if we piss people off and do bad things, it's very likely it will come back and bite us in the ass. Survival of the fittest, only the courteous survive.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Exactly. Morality exists independtly of evolution.

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We are far from perfect, so you have no proof.

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Zitat von FreePlay

I've considered this myself. I can understand the blooming of a flower as a purely natural thing, springing from a series of evolutionary changes that lead to such a thing coming to be. But as to why it should inspire us to write songs, paint pictures, and appreciate the beauty in the universe... there's nothing scientific about it.

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Once again, just because it can't be explained by science now doesn't mean it isn't scientific...

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Zitat von FreePlay

I firmly believe that emotions cannot be wholly explained by science. You can put a chemical label on something that makes you happy, but that doesn't explain why we need to feel happy in the first place.

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I agree, but there is still a scientific reason behind it all. Also that has nothing to do with god...

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Zitat von FreePlay

Emotions get in the way of our survival instincts more often than they help them.

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That's because we no longer need those survival instincts in todays world. We are still evolving you know.

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Zitat von FreePlay

From a worldview that excludes God and is purely naturalistic, yes, everything does have to have an evolutionary purpose. Or at least an evolutionary explanation.

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Welcome to reality...
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

Absolutely I believe it does exist elsewhere.

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Tell me, what do you think religion is like on those other planets? They certainly wouldn't follow Jesus Christ since he lived here on Earth.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

Thanks for the strawman, but you can't prove a negative assertion. Logic forbids it without 100% omniscience.

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Hypothetically... And you never answered the question.

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Zitat von FreePlay

No, but if God didn't create the universe, He might as well be excluded from the universe altogether.

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Another assumption I see...

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Zitat von FreePlay

Supernatural events and beings don't need a cause. Only natural events and beings do. Things that exist outside of nature aren't bound by nature.

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Things that exist outside of nature don't exist at all.

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Zitat von FreePlay

OK, but you aren't answering the question. What is "good" and "bad" if you have no reason to feel good or bad? What do they even mean, without some sort of universal moral standard? You can't say you feel 'bad' or 'good' without implying that there's some external thing that defines what 'bad' and 'good' are, and explains what it means to feel them.

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You know, we were born with these things call instincts...

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Zitat von FreePlay

Dude, he posted the entire freaking book of Genesis. That's why I said that. It must've been deleted before you saw it.

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I never saw that, but your quote from him made it look like you were just mad about his opinions

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Zitat von FreePlay

OK, fine. Poorly worded. Let's call it trust, then. I trust science, and I trust religion.

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Trust and Faith are pretty much the same thing.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Who said anything about religion without faith?? I was talking about patriotism. Please try to stay in the conversation.

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The subject matter was still about religion, even if patriotism was used as a comparison.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Obviously you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word "agnosticism." "Agnostic" means that you haven't decided whether you believe God exists or not. That's all. It has nothing to do with science, logic, or anything else. Embracing agnosticism as a "faith" is just saying you refuse to decide whether or not to believe in God.

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I wouldn't call it refusal... I would just say that I have no reason to believe that god exists, nor do I have reason to believe he doesn't...

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Zitat von BreakDecks

You're just making crap up aren't you? First of all, you are making a huge assumption to say that "if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have an instinctive compulsion to perform in a moral way".

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No, I'm not making crap up. It's called the Universal Moral Law. Look it up.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

I'm not quite sure if I understand what you are talking about. It seems that you are now making idiotic assumptions based on your previously half-witted assumptions.

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Look, the fact that you don't understand indicates that the problem is with you, not with me.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

You couldn't be more wrong. If we do something good, something good might happen to us as a result. But if we piss people off and do bad things, it's very likely it will come back and bite us in the ass. Survival of the fittest, only the courteous survive.

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Wrong. Evolution does not work with "could happen" or "might happen." Evolution is a natural process. To say that some evolutionary change will happen because of a POSSIBLE result of our behaviors is to say two things:

1. Evolution sees the future, and
2. Evolution REWARDS certain behavior with genetic superiorty.

Saying that evolution works on a "could" or "might" level essentially turns evolution into a foreknowing god.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

We are far from perfect, so you have no proof.

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See what I said above. Assuming that morality developed through some societal benefit favored by evolution is turning evolution into a prescient deity.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Once again, just because it can't be explained by science now doesn't mean it isn't scientific...

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And just because science explains it doesn't mean that that's all there is to say. Like I said, science can explain the chemical reactions that make us feel happy, but it can't explain what that happiness means to each of us.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

I agree, but there is still a scientific reason behind it all. Also that has nothing to do with god...

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1. Scientific explanations of chemical reactions tell us nothing about our personal experiences with emotion.
2. I never mentioned God in that answer. It wasn't about God.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

That's because we no longer need those survival instincts in todays world. We are still evolving you know.

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Human evolution is no longer purely natural.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Welcome to reality...

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See, you're totally incapable of breaking from your preconceptions to even consider what I'm saying. It's philosophy, and you refuse to even think about it. And yet I'm the one who gets called closed-minded.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Tell me, what do you think religion is like on those other planets? They certainly wouldn't follow Jesus Christ since he lived here on Earth.

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A couple things.

First, Jesus came as humanity's savior. Not for any other planet.
Second, I firmly believe that other beings would be conscious of the universal moral law.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Hypothetically... And you never answered the question.

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I refuse to answer a hypothetical question based on a logically impossible hypothetical, on the basis that the answer itself would be forced into the realm of illogic.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Another assumption I see...

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Despite what you think, my assumptions are based on logic, not faith.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Things that exist outside of nature don't exist at all.

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Like I told you already, you cannot prove a negative, such as "things outside of nature cannot exist." Neither religion nor science would accept such an assumption as rational.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

You know, we were born with these things call instincts...

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Which is exactly my freaking point! Why do we have instincts to behave in a certain way if there is NO evolutionary purpose for that behavior? If we can survive just as well by behaving in the OPPOSITE manner, there would be no evolutionary advantage for either set of instincts. And yet, MORALLY GOOD behavior comes up in our instincts universally.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Trust and Faith are pretty much the same thing.

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Not at all. You can trust in something that has evidence. But when something has no evidence, you can only have faith in it. Trust has more rational support than faith.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

The subject matter was still about religion, even if patriotism was used as a comparison.

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Yes, exactly. And as I just said, nobody ever said anything about religion without faith until you did. Which is why I wondered why you said that in response to what I said.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

I wouldn't call it refusal... I would just say that I have no reason to believe that god exists, nor do I have reason to believe he doesn't...

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Which is therefore a refusal to decide one way or another. You say "I don't have a reason to believe one way or another," but you know that what you really mean is "I don't want to decide, regardless of what reasons I've been given."

What you need to realize about me is that I don't say what I say because I've been taught to say it, or because I just think it's the easy way out. I say what I say because for seven years I've agonized over the concept of God and morality. I've done my homework - extensively. I've checked out arguments on all sides of the debate. And I've investigated the logic of the positions. I'm not just making baseless assumptions, or repeating religious dogma I've been taught. I believe what I believe because I've come to the conclusion - through research and logical deduction - that these things are true.

man, this was very interesting to read. i wish i was better at english so i could really get in the conversation alittle more... :)

It's funny that you say that, because most non-native English speakers I've met speak English better than the natives... at least, online.

and right now im more on BreakDecks side.

but i gues im totally brainwashed cus i have been grown up in a atheistic familly. lol.. but however, if someone really proved for me in some way or gave me a good scientific reason how, why and in what form "god" would exist i would maybe belive.

and that whole thing about the emotional feelings and that we would need some kind of "god" to explain our human emotions is utter bull in my opinion. our brain is very complex and we have no idea what it can acomplish. and if everything needs a logic explanation then i cant see how you can belive in a "god" freeplay.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von FreePlay

It's funny that you say that, because most non-native English speakers I've met speak English better than the natives... at least, online.

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really...? but im really slow at typing and alot of words you wrote i could only asume what they meant. but thanks :) lol

Freeplay, you seem to just be getting angrier and angrier with your replies. If you are going to post in a religion-based thread, you have to keep cool or just don't post if you are going to start acting strange

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Zitat von FreePlay

No, I'm not making crap up. It's called the Universal Moral Law. Look it up.

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Oh, yes. This is what you are basing all this on:
1. There is a universal moral law.
2. If there is a universal moral law, then there must be a universal moral lawgiver.
Therefore,
3. There must be God.
Ok, the Universal moral law states that there is a universal moral law. That redundancy takes any merit away from this "law" if it can't explain why there is a Univeral Moral Law. Also, this is not a scientific law, it's just a quote by C.S. Lewis.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Look, the fact that you don't understand indicates that the problem is with you, not with me.

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I feel a lot more like I do now than I did when I used to.

I said it, figure it out. It's your problem now.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Wrong. Evolution does not work with "could happen" or "might happen." Evolution is a natural process. To say that some evolutionary change will happen because of a POSSIBLE result of our behaviors is to say two things:

1. Evolution sees the future, and
2. Evolution REWARDS certain behavior with genetic superiorty.

Saying that evolution works on a "could" or "might" level essentially turns evolution into a foreknowing god.

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Ever heard of trial and error? Do you even know how evolution works yourself?

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Zitat von FreePlay

Assuming that morality developed through some societal benefit favored by evolution is turning evolution into a prescient deity.

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No it doesn't...

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Zitat von FreePlay

And just because science explains it doesn't mean that that's all there is to say. Like I said, science can explain the chemical reactions that make us feel happy, but it can't explain what that happiness means to each of us.

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Not yet, but maybe one day it will.

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Zitat von FreePlay

1. Scientific explanations of chemical reactions tell us nothing about our personal experiences with emotion.
2. I never mentioned God in that answer. It wasn't about God.

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This whole thread is about God...

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Zitat von FreePlay

Human evolution is no longer purely natural.See, you're totally incapable of breaking from your preconceptions to even consider what I'm saying. It's philosophy, and you refuse to even think about it. And yet I'm the one who gets called closed-minded.

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I am very open minded, but I have to have some evidence before I deviate from my current beliefs.

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Zitat von FreePlay

A couple things.

First, Jesus came as humanity's savior. Not for any other planet.
Second, I firmly believe that other beings would be conscious of the universal moral law.

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Ok, so what is God then?
Oh, and C.S. Lewis wrote for humans here on Earth, not for any other planet.

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Zitat von FreePlay

I refuse to answer a hypothetical question based on a logically impossible hypothetical, on the basis that the answer itself would be forced into the realm of illogic.

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That's probably because you know you either have to contradict yourself or admit that you would do terrible things.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Despite what you think, my assumptions are based on logic, not faith.

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You don't always back up your logic with something tangible.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Like I told you already, you cannot prove a negative, such as "things outside of nature cannot exist." Neither religion nor science would accept such an assumption as rational.

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Ok, fine. Things can only exist inside of nature. Now explain how that doesn't make sense.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Which is exactly my freaking point! Why do we have instincts to behave in a certain way if there is NO evolutionary purpose for that behavior? If we can survive just as well by behaving in the OPPOSITE manner, there would be no evolutionary advantage for either set of instincts. And yet, MORALLY GOOD behavior comes up in our instincts universally.

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There is plenty of evolutionary purpose for morals. Also, we all evolved to have arms and legs and be human beings even though we live in various parts of the world, so we all evolve in very similar ways.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Not at all. You can trust in something that has evidence. But when something has no evidence, you can only have faith in it. Trust has more rational support than faith.

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That's why I said "pretty much".

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Zitat von FreePlay

Which is therefore a refusal to decide one way or another. You say "I don't have a reason to believe one way or another," but you know that what you really mean is "I don't want to decide, regardless of what reasons I've been given."

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So you're saying I need to go one way or the other? Why is that? Whats wrong with saying that you honestly don't know?

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Zitat von FreePlay

What you need to realize about me is that I don't say what I say because I've been taught to say it, or because I just think it's the easy way out. I say what I say because for seven years I've agonized over the concept of God and morality. I've done my homework - extensively. I've checked out arguments on all sides of the debate. And I've investigated the logic of the positions. I'm not just making baseless assumptions, or repeating religious dogma I've been taught. I believe what I believe because I've come to the conclusion - through research and logical deduction - that these things are true.

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I understand that you believe it to be true, but I have the right to think otherwise, and we are both open for debate here.

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Zitat von Hooverphonic

and if everything needs a logic explanation then i cant see how you can belive in a "god" freeplay.

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To me, God is the logical conclusion for what I see and experience. I could explain thoroughly why my logic differs from yours, but I'd have to get into the Kantian concept of ideals and neumenal reality... and something tells me that wouldn't translate very well :/ Suffice it to say that our experiences of what is real, and what is really out there, can be entirely different from each other, since we experience different slices of reality. To me, I could logically say that for me God is entirely real, because of my experience, while your experience may not need God.[/QUOTE]really...? but im really slow at typing and alot of words you wrote i could only asume what they meant. but thanks :) lol[/QUOTE]

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Zitat von FreePlay

To me, God is the logical conclusion for what I see and experience. I could explain thoroughly why my logic differs from yours, but I'd have to get into the Kantian concept of ideals and neumenal reality... and something tells me that wouldn't translate very well :/ Suffice it to say that our experiences of what is real, and what is really out there, can be entirely different from each other, since we experience different slices of reality. To me, I could logically say that for me God is entirely real, because of my experience, while your experience may not need God.

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How is god logical?

This thread is getting ridiculous. What does it matter what someone else thinks? So what if you disagree? Accept what they think and get on with your lives.. or I suppose you could continue repeating the same things over and over again.

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Zitat von NeilR

This thread is getting ridiculous. What does it matter what someone else thinks? So what if you disagree? Accept what they think and get on with your lives.. or I suppose you could continue repeating the same things over and over again.

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The point of an online discussion is to discuss, right? I don't see a problem here personally.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

The point of an online discussion is to discuss, right? I don't see a problem here personally.

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If you don't see my point about things repeatedly said then read a few pages..

Oh, I'm not really angry. If I was angry, you'd know :p I just get really involved in this sort of discussion because - let's face it - I have a vested interest in the subject.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Oh, yes. This is what you are basing all this on:
1. There is a universal moral law.
2. If there is a universal moral law, then there must be a universal moral lawgiver.
Therefore,
3. There must be God.

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You must not have read that whole page, which explains that sequence.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Also, this is not a scientific law, it's just a quote by C.S. Lewis.

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It's philosophy, which is what religion falls into.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Ever heard of trial and error? Do you even know how evolution works yourself?

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I am intimately familiar with how evolution works. Morality COULD NOT evolve simply because of the POSSIBILITY of positive feedback. Evolution works on absolutes, not potentials. There has to be an explicit benefit for survival for anything to become a universal trait.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

No it doesn't...

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Yes, it is, because you have to say that evolution favored something that didn't necessarily happen yet, which an unconscious natural law cannot do.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Not yet, but maybe one day it will.

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No, it won't. You cannot make scientific observations of personal experience. My experience of reality is different from yours, simply because we're two separate consciousnesses.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

This whole thread is about God...

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The thread, maybe, but the particular point of discussion was about beauty and emotion.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

I am very open minded, but I have to have some evidence before I deviate from my current beliefs.

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Perfectly understandable :)

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Ok, so what is God then?

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I believe that God is a logically necessary being that is maximally omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, within logical bounds. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess, really.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Oh, and C.S. Lewis wrote for humans here on Earth, not for any other planet.

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Yeah, I know :p

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Zitat von BreakDecks

That's probably because you know you either have to contradict yourself or admit that you would do terrible things.

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You're probably right. I wouldn't feel a need to follow a moral imperative if I found out that there was no basis for the moral imperative. But if there was no reason for me to behave morally, there would also be no reason for me not to behave immorally. The same would go for everyone. We'd have no qualms against committing atrocities against each other, since there'd be no reason not to.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

You don't always back up your logic with something tangible.

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True, but part of the problem is that I skip lots of stuff that I spent a full semester debating and discussing in my Philosophy of Religion class. Sometimes I have to slow down and remember that not everyone has had that experience :p

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Ok, fine. Things can only exist inside of nature. Now explain how that doesn't make sense.

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What I meant was that it doesn't make sense to claim that you can prove that something doesn't exist. If you could honestly make such a claim, and prove it, you'd have to have knowledge of everything that does exist, which isn't possible for a being of limited cognitive ability. Only God could know that ;)

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Zitat von BreakDecks

There is plenty of evolutionary purpose for morals. Also, we all evolved to have arms and legs and be human beings even though we live in various parts of the world, so we all evolve in very similar ways.

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Ummm... actually, the beings that would eventually become Homo Sapiens Sapiens all evolved in a relatively small region of what is now Africa :p

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Zitat von BreakDecks

That's why I said "pretty much".

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... What is? I said they were entirely different, because one is easier to support on rational, logical means.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

So you're saying I need to go one way or the other? Why is that? Whats wrong with saying that you honestly don't know?

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I have issues with people who refused to make decisions about the single most important question of our lives. Whether or not God exists is central to our worldviews. If He exists, we have an obligation to learn about Him. If he doesn't, we have nothing to worry about. The point is that as with any philosophical question, there is an answer, and refusing to pick a side seems silly to me.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

I understand that you believe it to be true, but I have the right to think otherwise, and we are both open for debate here.

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Sure :)



Neil, I happen to like this thread, even if it does seem like we're going in circles. When you have discussions about things that are important to people, that's bound to happen.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

How is god logical?

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Well, there are several ways to argue this.

One that I don't particularly like involves the discussion of "possible worlds." Possible worlds are worlds that could exist physically, or that could exist logically, but not physically. Obviously, the actual world is one of these.

The argument says that "it is possible that God exists." Since we cannot prove the opposite - that God doesn't exist - without total knowledge, we must accept this premise.

Then, by saying "it is possible that God exists," we are saying that there is at least one possible world where God exists. (We could be saying anything here at this point - replace the word God with "Bloogh" and it still makes sense. At this step, God has no definition.)

We can also say that "it is possible that a being exists that is more perfect, more omnipotent, more omniscient, and more omnibenevolent than anything else in creation." Because, again, we can't disprove that.

Thus, such a being exists in at least one possible world.

Now. If this being is more perfect than anything else, and it existed in only one possible world, a being that exists in two possible worlds couldn't exist, as it would be more perfect. Thus we must assume that this being, to be as perfect as possible would exist in all possible worlds.

Which means that it exists in the actual world.

Now the reason I don't like this argument is ... well, it's a bit silly. You can say that a perfect island could possibly exist, and thus it must exist somewhere. But that doesn't tell us anything about what the island looks like, where it is, etc. So even if this argument could somehow pigeonhole us into accepting God's existence, it doesn't tell us anything about Him.

There are more arguments, if you want them :p I might have to dig out my notebook to find them.

Buddhism is non-theistic, yet it is considered to be the most peaceful religion in the world.

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Zitat von FreePlay

Well, there are several ways to argue this.

One that I don't particularly like involves the discussion of "possible worlds." Possible worlds are worlds that could exist physically, or that could exist logically, but not physically. Obviously, the actual world is one of these.

The argument says that "it is possible that God exists." Since we cannot prove the opposite - that God doesn't exist - without total knowledge, we must accept this premise.

Then, by saying "it is possible that God exists," we are saying that there is at least one possible world where God exists. (We could be saying anything here at this point - replace the word God with "Bloogh" and it still makes sense. At this step, God has no definition.)

We can also say that "it is possible that a being exists that is more perfect, more omnipotent, more omniscient, and more omnibenevolent than anything else in creation." Because, again, we can't disprove that.

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But just because you can say a sentence (that is grammatically correct) does that mean that the idea held within the sentence can even be possible?
Like I can say: "Blue sheep dream furiously", but that doesn't mean that the idea contained within the sentence can happen. There is no such thing as dreaming furiously, just as it may not be possible for a being to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
Also on more linear line of thinking there is no way for something to be both omnipotent and omniscient as if the being was omniscient it would know everything, including its own future. Then it could not be omnipotent as it would be unable to change what it already knows is going to happen and therefore it would not be all powerful.

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Zitat von BreakDecks

Buddhism is non-theistic, yet it is considered to be the most peaceful religion in the world.

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True, but Buddhism still has a concept of universal morality, karmic reinforcement, etc.

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Zitat von Chathurga

But just because you can say a sentence (that is grammatically correct) does that mean that the idea held within the sentence can even be possible?
Like I can say: "Blue sheep dream furiously", but that doesn't mean that the idea contained within the sentence can happen. There is no such thing as dreaming furiously, just as it may not be possible for a being to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

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More reasons that I dislike this argument. I don't like that it allows you to say "the perfect X could exist" and thus prove that the perfect X does, in fact, exist.

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Zitat von Chathurga

Also on more linear line of thinking there is no way for something to be both omnipotent and omniscient as if the being was omniscient it would know everything, including its own future. Then it could not be omnipotent as it would be unable to change what it already knows is going to happen and therefore it would not be all powerful.

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I've got to disagree with you here. If something was all-powerful, it could have made its own future the way it wanted to be, then it would have known how that future would turn out.

gaah, i hate myself for not being able to write what i want in english...! i understand 95% of what you are talking about but when im trying to write at the same level i just fail... lol... it freaking irritating! :P

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Zitat von Hooverphonic

gaah, i hate myself for not being able to write what i want in english...! i understand 95% of what you are talking about but when im trying to write at the same level i just fail... lol... it freaking irritating! :P

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You've posted the same thing in this thread about 10x now, if you complain about your crap english one more time without making any contribution, you are banned from the thread.

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Zitat von PopeOfDope

You've posted the same thing in this thread about 10x now, if you complain about your crap english one more time without making any contribution, you are banned from the thread.

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whatever... http://loading.se/gfx/smilies/tired.gif


well well, i gues il stay out of this thread then since i have allready, like alot of other, have posted there belives like 10 times before over and over again.


however, my belives are that we humans created god to provide some answer for unanswered questions about the world. and also to help people get more hope and meaning in there lifes. which i cant understand why they wouldnt have without a god. we humans are special on this planet and have the ability to do so many things that other lifeforms cant do with our minds. i cant really understand why some people just cant except that we humans may not have any real meaning, but that dus not mean that we could create our own meaning on why we are here. my meaning of life is to live it as much as i can. thats enough for me to feel motivated to live day by day and have a great time. im not going to waste my life beliving in some sort of "god" that i have no idea if he/she/it really exist. i think the world is even more interesting when it is all buildt up on more reliable things. but meh, im glad im alive and im glad i got this little life i have.

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Zitat von Hooverphonic

gaah, i hate myself for not being able to write what i want in english...! i understand 95% of what you are talking about but when im trying to write at the same level i just fail... lol... it freaking irritating! :P

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We understand your English won't be as good as ours, but still, feel free to contribute. We won't criticize you for your grammar.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von Hooverphonic

whatever... http://loading.se/gfx/smilies/tired.gif


well well, i gues il stay out of this thread then since i have allready, like alot of other, have posted there belives like 10 times before over and over again.


however, my belives are that we humans created god to provide some answer for unanswered questions about the world. and also to help people get more hope and meaning in there lifes. which i cant understand why they wouldnt have without a god. we humans are special on this planet and have the ability to do so many things that other lifeforms cant do with our minds. i cant really understand why some people just cant except that we humans may not have any real meaning, but that dus not mean that we could create our own meaning on why we are here. my meaning of life is to live it as much as i can. thats enough for me to feel motivated to live day by day and have a great time. im not going to waste my life beliving in some sort of "god" that i have no idea if he/she/it really exist. i think the world is even more interesting when it is all buildt up on more reliable things. but meh, im glad im alive and im glad i got this little life i have.

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A lot of people also don't want to think that there isn't an afterlife. I mean, what's worth doing if you ultimately won't remember any of it? I figure that if there is no afterlife, then it's not so bad. I was in a state of nonexistence for quite a while. That all changed 18 years ago. But when I think back 20-30 years ago, back when I didn't exist, I can't say it was terribly unpleasant. ^_^

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Zitat von FreePlay

That's entirely not my point. My point would be that if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have an instinctive compulsion to perform in a moral way. It's not about what we believe or do. There is something built into human nature that makes us recognize the need for moral behavior, even if we ignore the compulsion to follow it. Everyone of normal mental faculties (i.e. not insane or mentally disabled) has a conscience, and there's nothing scientific about a moral instinct.
It follows logically that for something to be part of our nature, it would have to be part of the universe. And for it to be part of the universe, and still exist outside of the bounds of science, it would have come from outside of nature itself.
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But that's rubbish. Ideas and social trends don't cause genetic change. Moral behavior cannot evolve simply because we know someone else will do us a favor if we do them a favor.
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Morality exists independently of evolution.

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Morality exists independent of evolution as it is a trait that is taught and learned. The morals one has are based one his experiences in life and what he was taught. Why was it taught? It helped with survival. Do good to someone and you can benefit as well. Humans are social animals and it was to the benefit of humanity to have "good" morals.

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Zitat von LampShade

Morality exists independent of evolution as it is a trait that is taught and learned. The morals one has are based one his experiences in life and what he was taught. Why was it taught? It helped with survival. Do good to someone and you can benefit as well. Humans are social animals and it was to the benefit of humanity to have "good" morals.

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Talk about going in circles...that's almost an exact repost of what PopeOfDope said before, an I doubt that anyone wants to have the same argument again...

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Zitat von PSPHax0r9

Talk about going in circles...that's almost an exact repost of what PopeOfDope said before, an I doubt that anyone wants to have the same argument again...

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My post was an explanation for my view, against FreePlay's reply to PopeOfDope's post.

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Zitat von LampShade

Morality exists independent of evolution as it is a trait that is taught and learned. The morals one has are based one his experiences in life and what he was taught. Why was it taught? It helped with survival. Do good to someone and you can benefit as well. Humans are social animals and it was to the benefit of humanity to have "good" morals.

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I agree. But my major point is that morality as a cultural theme would only persist if there were actually something to it, other than just saying "we think it's good to be moral." There's got to be something that defines what good and bad mean, and also defines why we think we should be good in the first place. In a universe where beings improve themselves by gaining advantage over others, raising people up to your own level seems counterintuitive :p

Well, its impossible to be entirely moral. We as humans cannot be all goody goody and do good deeds 24/7. I do not believe in heaven and hell, there is no point to believe in it. If Jehovah(God) would make a heaven and hell because that would be like separating blacks from whites or legals from the citizens, he would probably give them a second chance. If you study the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. (not pressuring to become one, just proving a point. .) we believe that once all the evil and crime and scum that is on this hell we call the universe he will recreate the universe as it was but with no evil what so ever. He will make Jesus as the new rain on earth. Then we would become perfect with no flaws. Now that does not mean that only our religion will be here, it means that all the good hearted, kind people, people who devoted their lives for the good of man, and people that have impacted peoples lives to change(Not bad people that have done this just to get gain.) will be on earth too. I still have a lot of disagreements im my religion, but we are humble people. Please I was only saying what I have been raised with. If we did have a creator it would be a alien. Alien means not known or not of this earth or so Jehovah(God) would be considerd a alien f he was a living being or creature.

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Zitat von FreePlay

In a universe where beings improve themselves by gaining advantage over others, raising people up to your own level seems counterintuitive :p

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What you are saying is true, but you are forgetting something. Humans are social animals. Social animals depend on each other for survival. Even so survival of the fittest still happens as the dominate animal will be the one who is the healthiest and the one who mates.

I dont see "Made in China" anywhere on me, so he couldnt of created people,

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Zitat von Nicky

I dont see "Made in China" anywhere on me, so he couldnt of created people,

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Well God didnt make anyone in China.......

You have to check Adam and Eve and see if theres anything on them. We already know Adam has no belly button.

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Zitat von Sycketion

Well God didnt make anyone in China.......

You have to check Adam and Eve and see if theres anything on them. We already know Adam has no belly button.

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Where did "make us" then?

The Garden of Eden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden

Lol so we all are from the same family, we all can talk to Snakes? And we all are made of dust :D:D This is getting as exciting has brushing my teeth.
-= Double Post =-
Also if "God" was afraid of them eating from that Apple tree, then why did the idiot even put it there lmao.

Ever heard of a test?

Guess not. And its weird though. If you were made by God, you were made by an idiot, from what your saying.

God did not make me, he is a fictional Character which Billions of people dream about, someone called McMong thought it would be funny to start of religion crap about God, and now this day idiots still believe there is such thing when such Scientific evidence proves there is not.

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Zitat von Sycketion

Ever heard of a test?

Guess not. And its weird though. If you were made by God, you were made by an idiot, from what your saying.

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God would need no test, he would have known what Adam and eve were going to do before they did it. He made their brain chemistry and he knew based on their personality traits if he had made them too susceptible to ouside influence. There was no test as a test can be defined as: "A basis for evaluation or judgment", it wasn't a basis for either as like I said god would have already evaluted and judged them as he knows everything.
Also who was Cain's wife?

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Zitat von Nicky

God did not make me, he is a fictional Character which Billions of people dream about, someone called McMong thought it would be funny to start of religion crap about God, and now this day idiots still believe there is such thing when such Scientific evidence proves there is not.

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Proves? Now I wouldn't go that far.

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Zitat von Nicky

God did not make me, he is a fictional Character which Billions of people dream about, someone called McMong thought it would be funny to start of religion crap about God, and now this day idiots still believe there is such thing when such Scientific evidence proves there is not.

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Nicky, I am all for opinion, but if you post one more thing like that I will ban you on the grounds of flaming.

Now, I may in your eyes be an "idiot", but I'll tell you, at least I have respect for what other people believe in.

Got that kid?

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Zitat von Nicky

now this day idiots still believe there is such thing when such Scientific evidence proves there is not.

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Science cannot disprove religion. It's simply not possible.

Yeppers you got that right.